| [DCBC - DeepCoveBC responses
to the questions in Don McLaughlin's email are in green type such as this.]
Below is the result of your feedback form. It was submitted
by
Don MacLachlan (dmaclachlan@citizensassembly.bc.ca) on Monday, October 25, 2004
at 15:37:34
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Comment: In the interests of balanced debate, may I respond, please, to your criticisms
of the STV voting system recommended by the Citizens' Assembly on Electoral Reform?
- Is not truly proportional? STV most certainly IS proportional in practice. The
larger the riding (in terms of numbers of MLAs), the more proportional it is.
Yes, there is an obvious trade-off there in regard to B.C.'s North, Kootenays
and remote areas. The Assembly members were and are well aware of that trade-off,
and the others.
[DCBC - STV lucks out in proportionality when ridings are
quite large - in truth STV is not a proportional electoral system, meaning that
is does not truly proportion the votes according to the popular vote. Yes, proponents
of STV throw out the words that it is proportional but that just means it's a
system that uses proportionality in the way it is marked and counted - it does
not mean that it truly represents the proportions of the popular vote.]
- Does nothing to bring women into elected office? No electoral system, per se,
brings women into elected office. That is far, far, far more a function of what
the politicians and parties do in the way of nominating and supporting women.
(And why on earth would anyone think the 80 women members of the Citizens' Assembly
would vote for a system with a negative impact on women??????)
[DCBC - STV is used in 2 countries. Ireland and Malta.
You may have heard of Malta - the lowest proportion of women in politics in the
democratic world. Ireland is close by with 12%.
Here are a few quotes from the ACE project website (which is linked from your
BC Citizens Assembly website) about STV- "...members of parliament are predominantly
professional people, with very few working-class MPs", "Women are also
under-represented..." Sounds like a woman who wasn't of the professional
class may have two strikes against her in a BC STV electoral system.]
- Entrenches big parties? Under STV there has been an increase in the number of
parties in Ireland. While we're discussing Ireland, note that Irish governments
have on occasion tried to kill off STV -- but the voters refused in referenda
to let them kill it. STV limits the power of the entrenched party elite to decide
which of their candidates get elected and limits "safe seats". (Gee,
no wonder some politicians don't like it.)
[DCBC - Interesting, Ireland is dominated by 2 main parties
with a few others thrown in. And again quoting from the ACE Project (linked from
your BC Citizens Assembly website) about Irelands's STV - "...all parties,
large and small, have been accurately represented in relation to their size, with
the larger parties only slightly over-represented." So the big parties are
just "slightly over-represented" - no big deal I guess]
- Is not easily understood? You cannot be suggesting that, somehow, British Columbians
aren't as bright as the Irish. I take it, then, you think that MMP is more understandable,
with its constituency votes and party votes, top-up seats, overhang seats, two
types of MLAs, variable thresholds, and party lists that may be "open"
or "closed"?
[DCBC - I almost didn't understand what you were getting
at talking about some people not being as bright as others - I guess that's because
I'm only half Irish. So, if I vote for one person and they don't win, does my
first vote count or is it tossed out? And if my second vote doesn't go towards
a winner does it also get tossed? Now my third and perhaps my fourth and maybe
even my fifth, sixth, or seventh vote, okay wait a minute what if there is only
one person I want to vote for anyway, can I vote seven times for just one candidate?
Do I actually have to vote for people I don't want? What happens if I only vote
my first choice and don't choose a second, third, fourth or fifth, sixth or seventh
vote as I could possibly have that many votes in a large riding? And who knows
how to make sure that those votes actually are going to the right people? What
is that formula that you use? Oh, only the computers can figure it out - Aren't
they still doing that in New Zealand when the vote was four weeks ago? Yes, let's
not worry about a thing, the computers will tell us eventually how all those votes
the voting public may or may not have made come up with a winner. I'll be waiting
in the pub, just let me know when the computers have it all figured out.]
Is not easily counted? Well, who ever suggested the VOTER do the counting? The
trained people at ElectionsBC would do the counting.
[DCBC - Again, interesting, Whose computer shall we use?
Will this be out-sourced like BC Hydro administration? We will get people from
Florida to help?
Let me quote Stephen Hume from the Vancouver Sun on counting STV votes:
"But with the single transferable vote, the assigning of the votes seems
anything but straightforward. Instead, we're told, it will require a mathematical
computation so complex that computers will have to be used to properly weight
the distribution of the transferable votes.
I'm no Luddite. I use computers every day. Neither am I
seduced by technology. My general principle is, the simpler the better unless
proven otherwise." ]
Is in only two countries, Ireland and Malta. No, it is used in more than two countries.
True, STV has been used in smaller countries and jurisdictions, but that doesn't
make it a poor system.
[DCBC - I keep hearing about more countries than Ireland
and Malta that use STV for national or regional elections - but I never hear what
countries they are. Who is this 'coalition of the STV willing'?
All I can find for STV
national paliamentary elections is Ireland since 1921, Malta since 1947 and once
in Estonia in 1990. Ahh, yes Estonia - once in 1990,
let's not forget Estonia.]
And STV has some other strengths:
- Electors vote for candidates not parties; STV is candidate-centred and highly
democratic
[DCBC - doesn't seem to be working that way in Ireland.]
- Voters stand a better chance of seeing their favoured candidate(s) elected
[DCBC - better than what?]
- And they can choose among a number of candidates, splitting their votes, voting
for minorities, independents and and small-party MLAs, etc.
[DCBC - hmm, and it's the only system that allows 'voting
for minorities, independents and and small-party MLAs, etc'?]
To conclude, I have heard it said that Assembly staff included "closet STVers"
who tried to "hijack" the members. The first is both untrue and slanderous.
The second is outright rubbish. Go ask the 160 members if they were hijacked.
They'd know in seconds if anybody tried to hijack them, and they'd never stand
still for it.
[DCBC - Just one question - are you and Jack Blaney intent
on bringing back the word 'rubbish'?
Who has used those words - "closet STVers", "hijack" - we
should be careful not to get emotional here and start throwing around unsubstantiated
rhetoric. Let's stick to the pros and cons of the STV system - chosen by the assembly
for some unknown reason when the overwhelming public call was a MMP electoral
system. Maybe the Stockholm Syndrome set in?]
As for me, I'm not a closet anything: After 11 months, and even after spelling
out some of the strengths of STV above, I STILL DO NOT KNOW whether I prefer STV,
MMP, AV or some other system. There are so darn many pluses and minuses and trade-offs
to every system that I simply do not know which I would recommend.
Fortunately, not being a member of the Assembly, I didn't and don't have to.
They did a heck of a job, and we should all be proud of them.
[DCBC - Well, I for one think they should be proud of
you and the way you defend them and their choice. Thanks for writing in - keep
those cards and letters coming.]
Don MacLachlan
Associate director of communication
Citizens' Assembly on Electoral Reform
#2288 - 555 West Hastings St
PO Box 12118
Vancouver BC V6B 4N6
Phone: 604-660-1207 (1-866-667-1232)
Fax: 604-660-1236
E-mail: dmaclachlan@citizensassembly.bc.ca
Web: www.citizensassembly.bc.ca
Cell: 604-329-2090
www.DeepCoveBC.com
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